US Mennonite Brethren

8 comments (Add your own)

1. Joyce Creed wrote:

Amen. When we return to God's Word instead of mixing a doctrine compiled from "Christian books", we will regain our vision for who He is and what He calls us to do.

Tue, April 7, 2009 @ 9:38 PM

2. Debra Milton wrote:

You can't mix oil with water without separation occuring. Therefore watch as the Body of Christ separates from the Church and chooses to cling to Christ. What made the church ever think it could seek out the sinner and reform them outside their desire to serve Jesus and His word. Why was there a desire to make the truth more palatable and entertaining to the non believer as the lack of truth poisoned the believer. They (Church) sacrificed the believer for the non believer in creating this movement, so let them have it, it's dead any way. Love to all, Debra Milton
"will Jesus find faith on the earth when He returns?"

Fri, September 4, 2009 @ 9:10 PM

3. Bonnie Klaassen wrote:

You make this statement, "Many of the people mentioned by these writers are familiar to me as writers, speakers and ministers whose works I have read, messages I have listened to and ministries I thought were good. Youngen’s (sic) list includes Rick Warren, Max Lucado, Charles Swindoll and Mother Teresa, and Oakland adds Roman Catholicism. Am I so blind to the deception of these people that I could not recognize apostasy right in front of my eyes? There are too many enemies!"

My question is this: What if you have not taken the time to do the hours of research that authors like Oakland and Yungen have? I have been studying the "emerging/emergent" movement for almost three years and have come to many of the same conclusions they have. Oakland and Yungen understand that authors, speakers, etc. who endorse those in the emerging/emergent church movement and its proponents are unwittingly leading their readers and listeners into contemplative spirituality (CS), the Trojan Horse of Eastern spirituality. The introduction of CS into the evangelical church was PLANNED by the Monastic Interreligious Dialogue (MID) in the 1970's. If you are willing to do your homework you can find statements verifying this information online on MID's own website. The emerging church is the primary conduit of this mystical spirituality in the evangelical churches. This doesn't mean that everyone reading/listening to them will take the bait, but doesn't it behoove those who have studied the movement to warn believers about the dangers of this movement? We are to have no fellowship with darkness; witness to them, yes, but not fellowship. The associations and promotions of those you have mentioned (Warren, Lucado, etc.)result in spiritually dangerous, and I believe, illegitimate liaisons. This also doesn't mean that these men have erred in other areas of their teaching ministries (most of their teaching is fine, but it only takes a little leaven to leaven the whole lump!.

The emerging/emergent movement has many subgroups or roads, including the theologically conservative but culturally liberal groups. What many fail to recognize is that these roads, if they once were divided, are now once again converging into one. At the least, the thing they all end up having in common is contemplative spirituality or mysticism, since they all promote authors who are contemplative, even those who claim to be theologically conservative (Mark Driscoll, for example).

A return to plain Scripture and the simple way of the cross is a fine antidote to these obscure and nefarious movements. We are commanded in Scripture to test all things. Paul warned the churches over and over again in order to protect them from error. If the emerging/emergent movement is promoting practices that come from outside of Scripture, why are we not examining them more carefully? And why aren't people being warned about the errors in these groups. Have we become spiritual pacifists?

I put forth the challenge to you and all those in positions of spiritual leadership to take your responsibility to protect the flock from wolves and from doctrinal and practical errors (such as contemplative prayer) of the faith seriously. Much of the New Testament is written to warn and protect the flock in order to preserve "the faith once delivered". In our desire to be considered relevant and world-friendly we have failed to do so, putting the flock in grave spiritual danger.

Tue, September 22, 2009 @ 6:15 PM

4. Bonnie wrote:

I always try to back up what I say with concrete evidence. From what I understand Driscoll's book "Confessions of a Reformission Rev", reveals a record of his practicing "contemplative disciplines". I have not read the book myself, so maybe someone who has can comment on whether this is true or not. At any rate, Driscoll has a crude and foul mouth and a love of the world, disqualifying him from the ministry. If there is no repentance, it would not surprise me if he begins to make other spiritual compromises in the future, including a tolerance of the erroneous emergent movement.

Further, just as I was writing this I found the following book available on Mars Hill website: "Ancient Disciplines for the Church" by Phyllils Tickle, contemplative and emergent author and speaker:(http://www.marshill.org/cart/index.phpmain_page=product_info&cPath=57_38&products_id=458.

For a plethora of other contemplative spirituality resources at Mars Hill, go to: http://www.marshill.org/teaching/other.php. These include Rob Bell and others. The description of the resources is as such: "Here's something worth checking out from days and years gone by. Below are links to audio files of some of the classic teachings that have helped shape our Mars Hill community." (Source same as previous link). Obviously,by this statement, Mark Driscoll considers these resources valuable formative teaching for his congregation.

For further evidence regarding the Monastic Interreligious Dialogue, you can link to my name and read the post called "My Response to the USMB 'Emerging Church Debate Casualties' Article". Although the MID's first order of business was to reach other "monastics" in their own "Christian"/Catholic faith and other spiritual pagan traditions, their literature and the publication of books by authors (by popular Christian publishing houses) who caught on to the movement have spread this spiritual madness far and wide, including the Christian church and its institutions. If Satan is going to succeed in producing widespread apostasy in the church (the falling away described in the last days in Scripture), what better way could one think of than to introduce a form of meditation/prayer that could fit within every spiritual tradition, and in essence uniting all faiths by producing a worldwide spiritual unity, while enabling people to remain within their own spiritual traditions. It will be a spiritual compromise in its highest and most deceptive form, recreating a postmodern tower of Babel, the prime Scriptural example we have of a worldwide spiritual rebellion against the Most High. Satan is the craftiest of all the creatures God created. We should be so naive to think he is above this type of deception as his "grande finale", knowing his time is running out.

Thu, September 24, 2009 @ 10:18 PM

5. Alinsmoggie wrote:

Bonnie states "I always try to back up what I say with concrete evidence" but then begins the accusations based on evidence from a book that has not been read. Not a good start. Then based on further 'evidence' the following judgement is made "Obviously,by this statement, Mark Driscoll considers these resources valuable formative teaching for his congregation." There is a problem with this however as the supposed evidence is from the website of Mars Hill, the church where Rob Bell is Founding Pastor so no surprises really at the content or recommendations.

Mark Driscoll is a pastor of http://www.marshillchurch.org/ so any concrete evidence should really come from there if you can find any. I have read "Confessions of a Reformission Rev" and do not recall anything about "practicing "contemplative disciplines"". I have however heard and read of the reason he split from what is now the Emergent Village group.

Bonnie's comment above lacks any concrete evidence but is based on hearsay ("what I understand") and sloppy research. Given the nature of the accusations made a retraction and apology should surely follow.

Tue, April 13, 2010 @ 5:24 AM

6. Bonnie Klaassen wrote:

"Alinsmoggie":

You are correct, in that I have confused Mars Hill Bible Church (Rob Bell) with Mars Hill Church (Mark Driscoll). I thank you for pointing out the error and I do apologize for this. It was sloppy research on my part in this particular part of my comment. I had not made the connection that there was more than one church using the name Mars Hill. And I did say that I would like someone who has read Driscoll's book to verify whether it was true or not that it contains a record of his practicing "contemplative disciplines". Maybe not a great start at PRESENTING the evidence in this case, but that doesn't mean that there isn't any.

You said, "I have read 'Confessions of a Reformission Rev' and do not recall anything about practicing 'contemplative disciplines'".

After further research (prompted by your accusation of using hearsay) I have discovered however, in the same book, Driscoll stating on page 169, "I spend a lot of time in prayer, silence, solitude, study and other contemplative disciplines to hear from and connect with Jesus." (See the link at http://books.google.ca/books?id=ivS1oNco0cIC&dq=mark+driscoll+contemplative&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=9HjxS97YNZTWsQPT8eDBDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCw#v=onepage&q=contemplative&f=false).

The "hearsay" came from a trustworthy source, and I don't believe I have to read every last book to use it as an example (although I really wish I had the time to do so). It has become plain to me however, that even someone who has read the book can be mistaken about what is in it if they do not understand what is happening in the majority of churches in this regard, and have a poor understanding of what contemplative spirituality really is, who is involved in promoting it, and how it is affecting the church.

Driscoll also recommends books by contemplative authors on some of his websites. Please see http://theresurgence.com/obedience_to_scripture where you will find the following recommendation written by Mark Driscoll under the heading "Books to Read": "If you would like to study the spiritual disciplines in greater detail, Donald S. Whitney has written a wonderful book titled Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life that would be helpful for you to read. Also helpful are Celebration of Discipline, by Richard Foster, and Sacred Pathways, by Gary Thomas."

Further examples of contemplative/emergent authors recommended by Driscoll:

(from http://theresurgence.com/series/Great_Books)
**In the category entitled ""Faith" you will find "Renovation of the Heart: Putting On the Character of Christ" by Dallas Willard and "Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth" by Richard Foster
**In the category entitled "Family" you will find "Sacred Marriage" by Gary Thomas
**In the category entitled "Church Leadership" you will find "The Contemplative Pastor: Returning to the Art of Spiritual Direction" by Eugene Peterson

(from http://theresurgence.com/series/Great_Books?page=1)
In the category entitled "Helpful Books on the History of Atonement" you will find "The Crucified God: The Cross of Christ as the Foundation and Criticism of Christian Theology" by Jurgen Moltmann

Please note that Moltmann's theology is based on Hegelian philosophy, that he is a panentheist and believes in universal salvation. Moltmann's theology forms a large part of the basis of emergent theology, and although Driscoll claims to have turned his back on the emergent camp, he is promoting a book by an author highly esteemed by the emergents. You can do your own homework to see if I am correct in my assessment of Moltmann and the emergents. I recommend reading the book "The Emergent Church: Undefining Christianity" by Bob Dewaay who attended a conference for emergent pastors which had Moltmann as a featured guest. DeWaay HAS done his homework, going toe-to-toe with the erroneous theology of the emergents and Moltmann. I have read this book myself, by the way.

Dallas Willard, Richard Foster and Gary Thomas and Eurgene Peterson all promote contemplative prayer and mystical spirituality in the books recommended by Driscoll. Whether or not you believe this type of spirituality has ties to Eastern pantheistic spirituality is up to you to discover. I have already done my homework in this area and have no doubt that the ties are there and that the outcome will be interspirituality. Will it happen all at once and in the same place at the same rate? I hardly think so, but the trend certainly appears to be "emerging". The point I would like to make is not so much whether you call yourself emergent/emerging or anything else, but whether or not your spiritual practices are biblical and what will be the outcome. Babylonian mystery religions were not so much unified by the "gods" they worshiped but because they believed that they could be gods (or a part of him), the same conclusion reached by those practicing contemplative disciplines when they have reached the full fruition of their error. Only those who are "in Christ" can partake of the divine nature, (please note Scripture does not say we "become" divine, as do those practicing Eastern meditative spirituality). We are only "in Christ" when we have repented and turned to God in faith to the person and work of Jesus Christ who gave His life as a ransom for us. This is the only way we have access to God. Contemplative disciplines are simply not a biblical way for us to access God. Biblical prayer and the study of Scripture illumined by the Holy Spirit and fellowship with the body of Christ, His true Church, are the avenues given to those "in Christ" for the development of their spiritual walk with God.

The issue here is CONTEMPLATIVE SPIRITUALITY, not Mark Driscoll. He is but one of many promoting it. There are many movements and groups proving to be the conduit for contemplative spirituality (the Roman Catholic church being primary, the emerging/emergent secondary, and on the other side of the coin, the "new age" movement, although they don't particularly use that term anymore). I was merely pointing out that this is the avenue it is coming in within the "evangelical" camp.

Mon, May 17, 2010 @ 2:20 PM

7. Michael wrote:

Donald S. Whitney has written a wonderful book titled Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life that would be helpful for you to read.

Unfortunately, Whitney got his ideas and basic understanding on Spiritual Disciplines from Richard Foster (he acknowledges this on his website) and Dallas Willard. Prof. Whitney is currently re-writing his book "Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life" and says that the new version will be much more biblical. I think this will take a major re-write, but certainly hope this is so.

Fri, October 22, 2010 @ 2:42 PM

8. Michael wrote:

A clarification, I was quoting Bonnie as she quoted Mark Driscoll saying "Donald Whitney has written a wonderful book title 'Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life'. I was not saying this myself about Prof. Whitney's book.

The second part, which starts with "Unfortunately" is my thoughts. If you read Richard Foster and/or Dallas Willard and compare their understanding and teaching on 'spiritual disciplines' you will see the similarities with Donald Whitney's. Prof. Whitney says that he has received a lot of grief for quoting from these men and several others, and intends to remove the quotes from the updated version of the book. I think that if he does not re-evaluate his basic understanding and position on spiritual disciplines, as to where it flows from and is based on the works of Foster and Willard and 'update' this in his book, the book will not be significantly more biblical. Foster and Willard's basic understanding on spiritual disciplines is not biblical to begin with and Whitney did not correct this understanding/teaching in his book.

Tue, October 26, 2010 @ 4:47 PM

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